Who Was Nana Jay?
- Tony Smith
- Aug 10
- 17 min read
Childhood Recollections
It was an early Wednesday afternoon in the school holidays between about 1975 and 1981 when I took the short walk with my mother from Topsham railway station to the Altamira estate. My Mum knocked on the door and a sprightly lady of around 80 answered the door, greeted us enthusiastically and ushered us in, taking our coats from us. We were in the main living room of a ground floor flat. In the living room there was a dark sideboard with photos, various pieces of china and personal items on display. Not far from the door there was a cabinet with dozens of miniature soldiers which was sealed. We sat down on the settee and the lady started talking to us. She talked about her family, asked how my mother was getting on and enquired about my progress at school.
You may be wondering why we were visiting this person? The person was Nana Jay, first name unknown who was not a relative of mine. As in common with many families at this time they had a "nana", "aunt" or "uncle" who was not a relative.
In 1967 my parents literally ran away to start a new life in Devon. After renting a cottage near Clyst St. George for a while their first encounter with Nana Jay occurred when they moved into the first floor flat above her in around 1969. By 1971 my parents left Topsham after buying a 2 bedroom terraced house in nearby Exmouth.
So who was Nana Jay? Through various recollections, observations and discussion with my mother there was quite a lot I could tell about Nana Jay. Her daughter Pat also lived with her at the flat and she worked at the pharmacy in Topsham and was involved with the sea rangers. Nana Jay was from Norfolk. This fascinated me as my real maternal nan was also from Norfolk. Her father delivered Christmas trees from Norway to Norfolk presumably by boat and took her to dine on the Cutty Sark at Greenwich.
She talked about her grandson who was called Keith, nicknamed "Coke". Nana Jay nor my mother mentioned how the nickname arose. He has sadly died not long after I was born at the age of fourteen, according to my mother from sugar diabetes. Keith was responsible for making and painting the soldiers in the sealed cabinet. My mother told me the story of how we were locked out of the flat once and Keith was able to climb up to and through the first floor window and let her in.
Nana Jay talked about various family members such as Percy, Jerry and Louise. I didn't know how they were related to her but South Africa and foreign countries were mentioned.
Every visit we made was accompanied by a beautiful spread of sandwiches, mainly egg, paste and cucumber (not together) with nice cutlery and plates. They seemed to taste better than the sandwiches my mother made. In the summer if it was nice weather we would sit out in the back garden and have food.
At Christmas and birthdays I was lavished with nicely wrapped presents. Nana Jay always gave me books; hardbacks rather than paperbacks. I still have most of them. She seemed to be quite educated & farily well spoken compared with most people I had met in my short life.
The books I received were "classics" published by Purnell with illustrations by Derick Bown.
Black Beauty, first published in this edition in 1974.
Robinson Crusoe, first published in this edition in 1974.
The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, first published in this edition in 1975.
Treasure Island, this impression 1977.
20,000 Leagues Under The Sea, published by Octopus Books Ltd, 1980.
In addition she gave me other books which I believed belonged to Keith which I read several times. These were the Real History by R. A. Thomas, published by J. M. Dent & Sons Ltd, published in 1962. There were four books.
Discovering Early Britain. Early farming, Bronze Age & Iron Age.
Discovering Later Britain. Romans, Saxons & Vikings.
Discovering Early England. Normans, Tudors & Stuarts.
Discovering Later England. Georgian, Victorian & England up to the 1950's.
Lastly she gave me the Book of Revolutions, Brian Innes, published by Bancroft in 1967. I received this when I was about age ten. However, revolution in England, France, Ireland, South America and Russia did not interest me at that time.
Initial searches for Nana Jay
I can't recall the last visit we made to Nana Jay or why we stopped visiting. I started my family history research in 2004. As the years progressed I started thinking more about childhood memories and started to wonder more about who Nana Jay was. Some of the questions I asked myself were:
Why and how long had she been living in Topsham?
What had happened to her husband?
Who were her parents?
Around 2019 I started looking. Although I didn't know here first name I presumed Jay was her surname. However, I remembered my mother sending Christmas cards to her daughter Pat in the post and addressing them to Pat Hay-Reid.
A search of the FreeBMD database at (1) identified a marriage between a Patricia S. Jay and John K. Hay-Reid in the Oct-Dec quarter of 1946 in the Acle District of Norfolk (2).
Further searches of FreeBMD for a birth and death records for Keith Hay-Reid found him born in Oct-Dec 1957 quarter, Acle District, Norfolk and a death record in Apr-Jun 1972 quarter, Exeter District. His death was shortly after we moved from Topsham (3 & 4).
A search for Pat's birth record on FreeBMD identified an entry from the Oct-Dec 1921 quarter, Yarmouth District, Norfolk with the mother's maiden name recorded as Goffin (5)
I checked to see if Pat had any siblings and identified a Percival F. W. Jay born in the Oct-Dec 1919 quarter, Yarmouth District who mother's maiden name was recorded as Goffin.
A search of FreeBMD for a Jay and Goffin marriage returned no results.
Ancestry Public Tree Search
I decided to carry out a a search of the Public Family Trees on Ancestry. As it was a number of years ago I can't remember who I searched on, possibly Patricia Jay. From this search I was able to identify the family in a tree added by member GC which confirmed that Pat's mother was Lillie May Thain and her father was Percy J. Jay. I now knew the identity of Nana Jay as Lillie May Thain. This was only the beginning though as when I clicked on GC's tree to view Lillie's parents it stated that they were Sarah Mabel Kate Thain and William Thomas Coke, 4th Earl of Leicester, 1880-1949. This was caveated with a note stating that there was uncertainty of Lillie's father as the 2nd and 3rd Earl of Leicester, 1822-1909 and 1848-1941 respectively both called Thomas William Coke were still alive when she was born in 1896. Following this discovery Keith's nickname of "Coke" made sense now. He was named after his great grandfather. The tree also confirmed that Lillie's mother married a gentleman with the surname Goffin afterwards and had more children.
I wrote to GC on Ancestry in June 2021 about the family and received a reply back in February 2022 from the daughter of GC stating he had sadly died. The family tree has been taken down now but there are other family trees done by other people which still appear. These all state that Lillie's father was the 4th Earl of Leicester.
After I made this discovery I digested the information found and apart from some odd searches I did not carry out any further research. My decision to write this blog and do further research was inspired by the television program called Queen Victoria: Secret Marriage, Secret Child? recently on Channel 4 with Dr Fern Riddell and Robert Rinder.
The Coke Family
The surname "Coke", or "Cocke" can be traced back to a William Coke in the hundred of South Greenhoe, now the Norfolk town of Swaffham in around 1150 (7 & 8).
The Coke family seat was Holkham Hall near Wells-next-the-Sea, Norfolk. Sir Edward Coke, 1552-1634 who would be Lillie's 9 x great grandfather was a famous lawyer who purchased Neales Manor in Holkham Parish founding what would become the Holkham Estate. He was born at Mileham, Norfolk and held high office including Speaker of the House of Commons, Attorney General and Lord Chief Justice (9). As Attorney General he led the prosecutions against Sir Walter Raleigh and The Gunpowder Plot (10).
Coincidentally Sir Edward Coke is mentioned in the Book of Revolutions I was given by Lillie. James I who came to the throne in 1603 made many enemies but none were more dangerous than Sir Edward Coke. In a famous meeting Coke argued that 'the law' was greater than even the king; and subsequently it was resolved 'that the king cannot by proclamation create an offence which was not an offence before; that the king's proclamation forms no part of the law; and that he hath no prerogative but that which the law of the land allows him'. This was the start of the English Revolution. In 1616 Coke was dismissed from his post for his insubordinate attitude to the king and in 1620 he entered parliament (11).
Holkham Hall was commissioned and designed by another Thomas Coke, 1st Earl of Leicester, 1697-1759. His only child pre-deceased him, so his nephew Wenman Roberts, 1717-1776 who would be Lillie's 3 x great grandfather inherited it. He took the name of Coke and his son Thomas Coke became 1st Earl of Leicester of Holkham who would be Lillie's 2 x great grandfather (12).
Thomas William Coke, 4th Earl of Leicester
Born on the 9th July 1880 he was the son of Thomas William Coke and Hon. Alice Emily White. He was educated at Eton and Sandhurst. He entered the Scots Guards as a cadet and was promoted to second lieutenant on 21st February 1900. He went to South Africa in November 1901 for the Second Boer War and was promoted to lieutenant on 10th January 1902. He was promoted to captain on 14th March 1906. He resigned his commission on 6th March 1909 when he became heir apparent. He was a Captain in the Scots Guards for the duration of the First World War.
Coke married Marion Getrude Trefusis, daughter of Colonel the Hon. Walter Trefusis and Lady Mary Montagu-Douglas Scott on 2nd December 1905. They had 5 children who would be Lillie's half siblings.
Angela Mary Coke, 06/11/1906 - Dec 1906.
Major Thomas William Edward Coke, 5th Earl of Leicester, 16/05/1908 - 03/09/1976.
Lady Sylvia Beatrice Coke, 19/10/1909 - Oct 2005.
Hon. David Arthur Coke, 04/12/1915 - 09/12/1941, killed in action.
Lady Katherine Mary Coke, 07/03/1920 - 06/10/1993.
Thomas William Coke died 21st August 1949, age 60. (13).
The lives of Sarah Mabel Louise Kate Thain & Lily May Thain
Now that I knew the identity of Nana Jay a search of FreeBMD for the birth of a Lily May Thain around 1896 identified an entry in the Apr-Jun 1896 quarter, Flegg District, Norfolk.
The birth certificate from the General Register Office and confirmed her birth was the 1st April 1896. Her mother was named as Mabel Thain; occupation General Servant (Domestic) and as expected the father's name was blank. The birth was registered on the 24th April with the mark of Lydia Thain, Lily's grandmother who was present at the birth at. St. Margaret, Ormesby. Ormesby is north of Great Yarmouth and is 56 miles from Holkham Hall (14).
Lily was baptised at St. Margaret, Ormesby on the 24th April 1896 which was the same day as her birth was registered. Her mother's names was recorded as Sarah May Louise Thain (15)
Lily May Thain Baptism 1896. © Norfolk Record Office & Ancestry (15) |
Sarah Mabel Kate Louise Thain(e) most commonly called Mabel had her birth registered in the Jan-Mar quarter 1876, Flegg District (16).
The 1881 Census shows Mabel living with her parents Dionysius, age forty five and Lydia, age forty four and siblings Joseph, age nineteen; Lydia, age fifteen; Dionysius, age twelve; Sidney, age eight; Rosa Maria, age two; Harry, age onw & Eva six months at Staithe House, West Somerton, Norfolk. Her father Dionysius was a Coal Merchant (17)
In 1891 the family were still living at Staithe House and there were no additional children for Dionysius and Lydia (18).
The Thain's appear to be quite well known for working as wherrymen who would transport people and cargo around the Norfolk Broads. The Thain's named one of their wherries Eva Rosa after their two youngest daughters. Intriguingly they were the last owners of another wherry named Lord Roberts. Lily's 3 x great grandfather was called Wenman Roberts (19).
On the 13th February 1898 just over 22 months after giving birth to Lily, Mabel married Frederick George Goffin in the parish church of Winterton by licence. Frederick whose occupation was an engine driver who lived at Winterton which was close to Somerton. Mabel's father Dionysius known as Dye was working as a corn merchant (20 & 21).
By 1901 Frederick and Mabel are living in Low Road with their ten month old daughter Rosa and niece, Millie Powles, age thirteen. Frederick's occupation was a fisherman. Lily was not living with them (22)
In 1901 Lily not spelt Lillie, age 5 was living with her niece Rosa Thain at Randolf Cottage, Wapping, Ormesby. Rosa was living on her own means. Maybe some provision was being made for Rosa to look after Lillie? (23).
In 1911 Mabel and Frederick had three children living with them; Rosa, age ten; Anna, age eight and Nancy age four. The census states that they had four child born alive and four still alive. The extra child was likely to refer to Lily who was not living with them. Frederick's occupation was a boat qwner involved in fishing and he was an employer. They were living in Winterton in a property with eight rooms which includes the kitchen but excludes the bathroom, so they were better off than many people (24)
Lily's absence from living with her parents was because now age fifteen she was a boarder at The Lawns School, North Walsham which was about eighteen miles north of Ormesby. Her name was recorded as Goffin rather than Thain (25).
The school was founded in 1877 by Misses Jane and Maria Carter Cooke and was described as a 'small select ladies school' at Kyneton, a private house on the corner of the Cromer and Mundesley Road. The school then soon moved to The Elms, North Street where it remained before until the early 20th century. It was a fee paying school for middle class girls. The school employed specialist teachers, prepared the girls for matriculation that could lead to university and a professional career (26).
A deed from Norfolk Record Office confirms that Maria Carter Cooke and Jane Cooke purchased The Lawns from the trustees of the will of Ann Maria Shepherd in 1905 (27).
On the 22nd August 1918 Lillie May Thain, age 22 married Percy James Jay, age 23 by licence in the parish church at Great Yarmouth. LIllie named her father as Frederick Thain which was likely to be her stepfather Frederick Goffin as his occupation was listed as a boat owner. Percy James Jay was a private in the Gloucestershire Regiment. 267212 being his Regiment number as confirmed by his medal roll index card (29, 30 & 31).
By 1921 Mabel, Frederick and their three children were living at at West Field House, Winterton and Frederick was a boat owner employer. The two older children were assisting their mother with household duties (32).
Meanwhile Lillie and Percy were living at 22 Hamilton Road, Great Yarmouth with their son Percival who was nineteen months old. The house on Hamilton Road is still there today. Percy was working as a Saw Mill Foreman for Jewson & Sons Ltd, timber merchants at Southtown which is part of Great Yarmouth (33).
By 1939 Mabel and Frederick are still living at Westfield with two of their daughters, Anna and Rosa. Rosa was now a Boorer which was her married name. Anna was acting as an Air Raid Precautions warden. There are two names redacted which may be a husband and/or children. Frederick was retired from work (34).
Lillie and Percy were still living in Great Yarmouth in 1939 at 70 North Denes Road which was just around the corner from their 1921 address at Hamilton Road. Percy was working as an assistant saw mill manager involved with timber conversion and machinery. He was the works Air Raid Precaution Warden assistant organiser. One entry was redacted which was likely to be daughter Patricia (35).
The death of Sarah Mabel Louise Kate Goffin was registered in the Jan-Mar quarter, Acle district, age 64 (36).
The death of Percival James Jay was registered in the Apr-Jun quarter, Newton Abbot District, Devon, age 70. Therefore, there was a possibility that Percy and Lillie were living in Devon at the time of his death. The Altamira estate in Topsham was from about 1965, so she may have moved there just after Percy died (37).
The death of Lillie May Jay was registered in 1990, Exeter District, age 93 or 94 (38).
Final Thoughts...
The aim of this blog was not to spend hours definitively trying to prove if Lillie's father was Thomas William Coke though this is what genealogists like to do. It's more about considering whether you know the story of the early life of people, family friends, neighbours and acquaintances who were part of your childhood whose own life may have reached back to the 19th century. You may be surprised.
As for Lillie their appears to be some oral history passed down through the family about her possible father. The nickname of her grandson Keith as "Coke" made sense when I viewed the public Ancestry tree and was a revelatory moment for me. She also attended a private school in North Walsham whereas her two eldest step sisters appeared to be at a school nearer to where Mabel and Frederick lived.
Mabel Thain appears to have been born on the 16th December 1875 whilst Thomas William Coke, 4th Earl of Leicester was born 9th July 1880. Lillie May was 1st April 1896, so when Lillie was conceived in 1895 Thomas William would have just turned fifteen years of age and Mabel was nineteen years of age.
Although Holkham Hall was about 46 miles from Ormesby, this distance was not out of the question for someone going into domestic servant. My own grandmother left Norfolk in the late 1920's to go into domestic service in Orpington, Kent.
Although she was not living with her mother and stepfather in the 1901 and 1911 Census this should not be used as evidence to judge their relationship as it was just a snapshot over a fifteen year period and she did talk about her father.
Sources:
FreeBMD , Civil registration database. FreeBMD - Search
John K. Hay-Reid & Patricia S. Jay Marriage, Oct-Dec 1946. FreeBMD, Civil registration database. Acle, Vol 4b, Page 809. FreeBMD - Search
Keith Hay-Reid Birth, Oct-Dec 1957, FreeBMD, Civil registration database. Acle, Vol 4b, Page 639. FreeBMD - Search
Keith Hay-Reid Death, Apr-Jun 1972, FreeBMD, Civil registration database. Exeter, Vol 7a, Page 1017. FreeBMD - Search
Patricia S. Jay Birth, Oct-Dec 1921, FreeBMD, Civil registration database. Yarmouth, Vol 4b, Page 27. FreeBMD - Search
Percival F. W. Jay Birth, Oct-Dec 1919, FreeBMD, Civil registration database. Yarmouth, Vol 4b, Page 32. FreeBMD - Search
Wikipedia, Coke Family background. Edward Coke - Wikipedia
The life of the Right Honourable Sir Edward Coke, knt., lord chief justice of the king's bench, etc, Published by J. & W. T. Clarke, London 1826. Humphry W. Woolrych. The life of the Right Honourable Sir Edward Coke, knt., lord chief justice of the king's bench, etc | WorldCat.org
Holkham. The Coke family comes to Holkham. History of Holkham Hall & Estate | Visiting Holkham | The Earls
Wikipedia, Edward Coke Edward Coke - Wikipedia
The Book of Revolutions, Published by Bancroft & Co. 1967, Brian Innes, page 11.
Wikipedia, Thomas Coke, 1st Earl of Leicester, (fifth creation). Thomas Coke, 1st Earl of Leicester (fifth creation) - Wikipedia
Thomas Coke, 4th Earl of Leicester. Thomas Coke, 4th Earl of Leicester - Wikipedia
Lily May Thain Birth, Apr-Jun 1896, General Register Office, Civil registration database. Flegg, Vol 4b, Page 36. www.gro.gov.uk
Lily May Thain Baptism, Parish Baptism Register. St. Margaret, Ormesby, 1896, page 166. Norfolk, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1922, digital image, Ancestry. Original held by Norfolk Records Office, Norwich. Norfolk, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1922 - Ancestry.co.uk
Sarah Mabel Louise Kate Thain(e) Birth, Jan-Mar 1957, FreeBMD, Civil registration database. Flegg, Vol 4b, Page 37. FreeBMD - Search
Mabel Louise Thain 1881 England Census, Archive reference: RG11; RD Flegg; Sub Registration District West Flegg; ED5; Piece No. 11917; Folio 69; Page 2; digital image, Ancestry. England, Wales & Scotland Census. Original held by The National Archives, Kew, London. 1881 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk
Mabel Louise Thain 1891 England Census, Archive reference: RG12; RD Flegg; Sub Registration District West Flegg; ED5; Piece No. 1505; Folio 65; digital image, Ancestry. England, Wales & Scotland Census. Original held by The National Archives, Kew, London. 1891 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk
Broadland Memories Blog. West Somerton - Land of Black Sails and Giants, Thursday 9th May 2013 by broadlandmemories, page 10. Broadland Memories Blog | Blogging on Broadland's past | Page 10
Frederick George Goffin & Mabel Kate Thain, Parish Marriage Register, Winterton with East Somerton, 1898, page 159. Norfolk, England, Church of England Marriages & Banns, 1754-1930, digital image, Ancestry. Original held by Norfolk Records Office, Norwich. Norfolk, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1938 - Ancestry.co.uk
Frederick George Goffin & Mabel Kate Thain Marriage, Jan-Mar 1898, FreeBMD, Civil registration database. Yarmouth, Vol 4b, Page 61. FreeBMD - Search
Mabel Goffin 1901 England Census, Archive reference: RG13; RD Flegg; Sub Registration District West Flegg; ED4; Piece No. 1818; Folio 49; Page 4; Schedule 28; digital image, Ancestry. England, Wales & Scotland Census. Original held by The National Archives, Kew, London. 1901 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk
Lillie Thain 1901 England Census, Archive reference: RG13; RD Flegg; Sub Registration District East Flegg; ED3a; Piece No. 1816; Folio 59; Page 7; Schedule 54; digital image, Ancestry. England, Wales & Scotland Census. Original held by The National Archives, Kew, London. 1901 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk
Mabel Goffin 1911 England Census, Archive reference: RG14; RD220; Sub Registration District West Flegg; ED04; Piece No. 11116; digital image, Ancestry. England, Wales & Scotland Census. Original held by The National Archives, Kew, London. 1911 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk
Lily May Goffin 1911 England Census, Archive reference: RG14; RD221; Sub Registration District North Walsham; ED11; Piece No. 11161; digital image, Ancestry. England, Wales & Scotland Census. Original held by The National Archives, Kew, London. 1911 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk
North Walsham & District Community Archive, Education in North Walsham. North Walsham & District Community Archive | Chapter 11 - Education in North Walsham
The Lawn, North Walsham. County Council deeds, relating to mainly small holdings. Reference: C/C 2/70/1-55. Norfolk Record Office. The Lawn, North Walsham | The National Archives
North Walsham & District Community Archive. "The Elms School", later called "The Lawns", North Walsham....... The Girls High School - North Walsham Photograph
Percy James Jay & Lillie May Thain, Parish Marriage Register, Great Yarmouth St Nicholas with St Peter, St John, St Andrew, St James, St Paul and St Luke, 1918, page 145. Norfolk, England, Church of England Marriages & Banns, 1754-1930, digital image, Ancestry. Original held by Norfolk Records Office, Norwich. Norfolk, England, Church of England Marriages and Banns, 1754-1938 - Ancestry.co.uk
Percy James Jay & Lillie May Thain Marriage, Jul-Sep 1918. FreeBMD, Civil registration database. Yarmouth, Vol 4b, Page 30. FreeBMD - Search
Percy James Jay, Gloucestershire Regiment, Regiment no. 5975 & 267212, UK, British Army World War 1 Medal Roll Index Cards, 1914-1920. Original data: Army Medal Office. WWI Medal Index Cards. In the care of The Western Front Association website. UK, British Army World War I Medal Rolls Index Cards, 1914-1920 - Ancestry.co.uk
Mabel Goffin 1921 England Census, Archive reference: RG15; RD Flegg; RD220; Sub Registration District Flegg, Sub District No. 2; ED4; Schedule 4; digital image, Ancestry. England, Wales & Scotland Census. Original held by The National Archives, Kew, London. 1921 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk
Lillie Jay 1921 England Census, Archive reference: RG15; RD Yarmouth; RD219; Sub Registration District Yarmouth Northern, Sub District No. 2; ED1; Schedule 193; digital image, Ancestry. England, Wales & Scotland Census. Original held by The National Archives, Kew, London. 1921 England Census - Ancestry.co.uk
Mabel Goffin 1939 Register. Archive reference RG101; Schedule No. 8; Sub Schedule No. 2; Line 21; digital image, Ancestry. England, Wales & Scotland Census. Original held by The National Archives, Kew, London. 1939 England and Wales Register - Ancestry.co.uk
Lillie Jay 1939 Register. Archive reference RG101; Schedule No. 268; Sub Schedule No. 2; Line 22; digital image, Ancestry. England, Wales & Scotland Census. Original held by The National Archives, Kew, London. 1939 England and Wales Register - Ancestry.co.uk
Kate Mabel Louise Sarah Goffin Death, Jan-Mar 1940. FreeBMD, Civil registration database. Acle, Vol 4b, Page 100. FreeBMD - Search
Percival James Jay Death, Apr-Jun 1965. FreeBMD, Civil registration database. Newton Abbot, Vol 7a, Page 581. FreeBMD - Search
Lillie May Jay Death, 1990. FreeBMD, Civil registration database. Exeter, Vol 21, Page 1776. FreeBMD - Search
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